Bottom set facing a check raise – 6 max cash

Game type: $2/$4 NL
Your image: TAG
Opponent’s image: The button is fairly TAG and the SB has been a bit of a wild card.
Your hand: 2d 2c

The setup: Preflop everyone folds to the button who makes a standard raise to $15. The SB calls and you call on the BB with 2d 2c. You hit bottom set on the flop:

ks 6c 2h

The SB checks and you decide to check. The button bets $25 and now the SB check raises to $75. The button has been playing a standard TAG game for shorthanded, making plenty of raises and continuation bets. The SB has been a strange mix of wild and quiet, but you haven’t seen them do anything that seems particularly stupid.

What’s your play?

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  1. Bob   •  

    I see this over and over and over and over again on this site. We make a wrong decision earlier in the hnd whihc either means we lose more money or we do not profit as much.

    Here we should 100% of the time bet the pot on the flop. We have hit a big big hand and we want to get paid off with it. By betting into it we get money in the pot, and if villain has a hand like AA or AK, they will usually raise it. Checking makes it difficult to get money in the pot as a check-raise on this dry board usually indicates a very strong hand, and a good opponent will often fold out good hands. Betting diguises our hand too and enables QQ and lower call here where they might not necessarily bet it. For each round of checking we do we lose a lot of potential value.

    I would bet this street. Depending on image and opponents tendancies I would either call/reraise if the play come back to me. I would thought bet the pot on turn no matter what card came and be willing to get it all in there.

  2. Rallenkov   •  

    This is a clear fold… kidding.
    I would call. This way I might get another Bet from the SB on the turn if I raise I most likley get rid of both opponents,
    I however agree with Bob, I would have leaded out on the Flop with about a half Pot bet, both to build the Pot and to disguise my hand a little.
    My Raise on the Flop could mean a wide range of hands, a much wider range then the Flat call of a reraise.

  3. Bob   •  

    “My Raise on the Flop could mean a wide range of hands, a much wider range then the Flat call of a reraise”

    If we 3 bet or 4bet a hand on the flop our opponent will know we are very rarely bluffing(ok 3bets can be bluffs on flops, but 4bets are almost certainly a very strong hand). In order to get paid off we need to have an image which support that. This means we must have been raising a lot before and have quite a laggyish image. If we have a TAG image I am more inclined to call a raise/3bet rather than 3bet/4bet myself as my opponents will fold out way too often if I repop it.

    Of course what is more important to consider is how your opponenets play against you and your image, and how they plays theirs hands range occording to that. That will determine your actions.

  4. Ally   •  

    I think the staff nailed this one.

    And, no offense to Bob, but I think playing this fast is going to cost you a lot of value. Just look at how much value you’ve already received from checking–you received your anticipated continuation bet from the preflop raiser, but you also received an unexpected c/r from the SB. If you lead a pot sized bet here, there’s a good chance that the button folds and also a good chance that you do not receive an aggressive play from the SB. Since the range of the button is huge, the SB can make a c/r with a big range, perhaps any K or even air? By leading into the preflop raiser, you’re announcing that you have a strong, but potentially vulnerable hand. Since your range by leading is much smaller than the button’s, it’s going to be much more difficult for the SB to make his c/r (and you may miss the value from the button altogether). So, I don’t like a lead here at all.

    The staff did nail it here. That board is so dry that our opponents either have us crushed with 66 or are looking at a maximum of 4 outs with a hand like 54s or 53s. I really have a tough time putting the SB on a real hand worthy of a c/r here on this board, maybe k6s or k2s? If K6, I guess they too have four outs.

    If our opponent has 66, it’s really just not our day.

    So, I’m going to like a flat call here of the c/r. I’d like to give some odds for the button to continue with the hand. If they have a K, they may come along and reevaluate on the turn. But, our flat call of a raise and a reraise with no draws on the board has to give some information about our hand. If we had AK, wouldn’t we have reraised preflop? So, we’re calling a raise and a reraise with a hand like KQ? Would we have called out of the BB with K6 or K2? 62? I like to fold all of that garbage in that spot. So, even though we flat call, we may still get some value out of the hand. And, we’ll have position on the SB.

    On the turn, why not flat call again if the SB throws out another bet? That should leave one more big bet to get the rest in on the river. If the SB checks, then we can take over the hand and make a 3/4 pot bet here. There’s a good chance he goes away, but you never know, he could get frisky and c/r again with a strong K or two pair. Or, maybe he was getting tricky preflop with AA.

    Anyway, I think a flat call is the best way to get a little more value from your hand. Even though the flat call will be very suspicious, you may still get another bet.

    On this dry board though, I’m afraid that we’re beat by 66, but I’m not sure I’m good enough to get away from this hand.

  5. Bob   •  

    Ally I totally disagree with your comment about the staff nailing it. By checking it we are losing potential value.
    Think about the situation carefully.

    Leading out is much more profitable than checking. I shall explain why. If we check and this scenario occurs, what hands are we representing. Well as you said Ally we cannot represent AK as we would nearly 100% of the time raise preflop. We cannot represent 2 pair as we would fold preflop. We cannot represent air here as noones stay in the hand once the betting round comes to us where there is a bet and a raise. Here we are folding any worse hands from QQ down.

    Ok the reason why we bet it. We bet it as we then give ourselves a MUCH MUCH MUCH wider range. With a wider range we are getting called and making our opponents make mistakes.
    What range can we assign now if we bet. Well anything bets here…….seriously anything bets here!! (If you are NOT betting here then you are not betting enoguh on the flop. I bet nearly 100% of the time on the flop to prevent my opponents knowing if I hit or missed).

    Ok If button has been LAG, and the board is that try a lot of people will take the initiative to bet this flop as the SB has shown no strength and it is likely the button has a marginal hand. If the button is a thinking LAG he will know maybe you are making aply and most likely raise you to try and represent the strongest hand. If LAG is a retard calling donk whatever fish, then he will call down light because he is utterly stupid. This way we get a lot of value from our hand. SB still may chose to raise us. Just becuse we donk bet into the preflop raiser doesnt mean Sb will not check raise 2 players on flop. If he has got AK and c-r well he has played it terribly. If he has got a set good for him I am giving him my whole stack, but I am 100% betting this flop as I would do if I had A7+, 54o QJs, Kx, and pair etc…

    and if you think TAGs do now bet with this range you obvious have lots to learn about poker. TAGs and LAGs are very similiar postflop, just preflop ranges change.

  6. Ally   •  

    Bob, I still have to disagree. I’m sure you’re right though that I still have a lot to learn about poker.

    If you’re leading out 100% of the time on that flop regardless of your cards, and your opponents have seen you lead out 100% of the time, then sure, by all means lead out here. With your style of play, leading out here leaves your hand well disguised. But, just because this is the best play for you, doesn’t make it the best play…

    The hand quiz doesn’t specifiy that you’re image is ridiculously loose and that you fire at 100% of flops. So, looking at the information available in the description, you have to assume that we’ve been playing a pretty ABC standard game. Under your ABC standard poker, leading the flop is not your most profitable play…

    Let’s say the button’s range is any pp, any ace, suited K or Q, and suited and unsuited connectors and one gappers (a huge range).

    And, let’s say that the SB’s range is any pp, two broadway, or suited connectors/one gappers.

    By leading this flop, the button cannot come along without at least a K, especially since the SB is still left to act. And, the SB will most likely fold here as well since your play does show more strength than checking to the preflop raiser. The SB at least needs KJ/KQ to come along.

    So, if you’re playing standard ABC poker, leading this flop is generally going to take the pot down right there most of the time and you get no value from your huge hand.

    By checking to the preflop raiser, you’re going to get value out of his continuation bet at least 60-80% of the time. Plus, you may receive value out of the SB if he calls or check/raises here if he caught any piece of the flop or on this board if he has a pp 77+.

    If our opponent(s) have exactly the right hands, I’d agree that leading into our opponents will be more profitable. If the button has AA or AK, leading here will probably win you a bigger payoff. But, against any other range, I don’t think so.

    And, as far as disguising your hand, your hand may still be well disguised on a normal continuation bet from the button, sb fold, and then you call or raise. The only reason that your hand strength is given away here is because you’re facing a bet and a raise. The pot has already been built for you before you’ve given away your hand.

    If you lead, button folds, and the SB check raises and you re-raise, and he folds, you’ve still lost value compared to the way this hand actually plays out. Plus, if you flat call, you can induce further mistakes in the hand by your opponents (to call with gutshot draw, to overplay AK/AA, to make a move with air).

    Anyway, for the more standard players out there, I disagree with leading the flop strong here. The odds of your opponent having the range of hands needed to make the play profitable isn’t high enough to pay you off enough to make up for all of the value you lose by scaring those players off the hand.

  7. Rot_In_Pieces   •  

    I would overbet the amount of the check raiser, so he maybe think your trying to get the pot right here and now, with a King -weak kicker.So if he has a King with a decent kicker he probably calls or reraises you.Flat calling isn’t really an option for me, since i think slow playing is so many times used these days, that it’s obvious.If i was the other guy from the check raise, and i get flat called while i reraise, i would know instantly that im beat, and someone is trying to make a good pot size.
    So definitly raise here, call is too obvious , he would probably check-fold next betting round.

  8. Kevin   •  

    DHQ and Ally are correct IMO. Leading out here probly more then often both SB and BB will fold or atleast just call and give no further action. Checking here is the right move and calling the SB raise in this hand is the right move.

  9. Jeff   •  

    Guys, how are you saying Bob is wrong.

    By raising, your hand value is unknown. You can have lots of different things and since this is a very safe board, you can continue to get value on later streets.

    The problem with how the hand has played out is that your making your hand be faceup.

    If you call, your range is literally like a set everytime, or maybe k-6 or k-2 or 2-6.

    If you raise, your range is the same.

    With that said, I probably call the flop.

    Then I’ll lead the turn for $150

    Then shove allin river.

  10. Todd   •  

    Bob is not necessarily wrong here. The only thing Bob is wrong about is that the scenario already gives the fact that you checked the flop. He is saying he would have playing the hand differently by not checking the flop. As is, Bob’s only possible error is that he hasn’t really said what he would do if he followed the scenario and did check the flop. Also Ally and Bob have differences about what someone would and would not call with. Scenario dependent people, it’s always scenario dependent.

  11. Thomas Fradd   •  

    I agree with leading out and betting with the set on this flop to disguise your hand, plus if someone flops top pair they will likely raise you. The SB who check raised the button was likely setting a trap with top pair, if you flat call him and he has a hand like K-10 or K-J he would porably lead again on 4th cos he would think you would be outkicked, and if he paired his kicker on 4th or made trips, you would surely take a big pot from him.
    bottom line: i like flat calling here, give your opponent a free card.

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